Mage Council Emergency Meeting!

[mythalenaste]

In the aftermath of the Abomination, Pel calls an emergency session of the Council. Those not present in Skyhold attend via Sending Crystal. The meeting is public and anyone can watch.

Her proposal is threefold:

First, a two-week anti-demon training course. Whether it's mandatory or not can be tossed back and forth by the Council in discussion.

Second, a variation on Harrowings, held in a safe location outside of Skyhold to be determined (for the safety of non-mages), with three major differences: (1) they are opt-in only, with the mage fully apprised of what the experience will be beforehand, (2) the subject has the option of being accompanied by a spirit medium for safety and education, and (3) they are called something besides Harrowings, due to the fearmongering nature of that name.

Third, mages going alone on missions will be partnered with (not escorted by) a templar, who does not oversee the mage's work but who accompanies them as a sort of bodyguard and helps them in their work. They are to be on utterly equal terms. If they're with another mage, one templar can cover more than one mage. That limit can be set at the Council's discretion, since obviously you can't have one templar with ten mages. In Skyhold, mages can go about without templars, but they can ask to be quartered with a templar if they feel like they need it to be safe. The templars being quartered with mages must have the Council's utter trust.

She concludes by beseeching the Council to work with the safety of all people in mind, whatever their background. Dalish mages will not submit to Harrowings or Templar oversight, but they still believe in this Council and don't want to lessen the fragile power it has.

It would be best to handwave as much of this meeting as possible, due to holiday schedules and time zones, so let's hash it out in the comments below.

Comments

DISCUSSION: Demon Resistance Training

[mythalenaste]

Mandatory? With what content? Let us talk.

[madame_de_fer]

Just a quick note, Vivienne feels that two weeks, while an excellent start, is insufficient training for mages. She's all for some intensive education to catch folks up, but part of what gives a mage an edge against possession is being fully armed with knowledge, practical tools, information, practice. She'd prefer that they'd provide ongoing training and education, in all the magical schools, and not just a quickie two-week crash course. It's the extended shoring up of skills and abilities which develops the character and will of the mage to withstand demons.

[paperwing]

Sabriel would push the two weeks as being mandatory; not only is it useful as a refresher but it would also soothe the fears of the younger mages if everyone was involved and everyone (particularly everyone in the council, Councillors in particular) is willing to take them. They need to feel safe and that they will not be possessed and there should be a level of transparency and a sharing of knowledge. The apprentices are the ones most harmed and scarred by this, physically as well as mentally.

Second she would also agree to Vivienne in wanting this to not be just a one off thing but that there should be ongoing training and education for all should they want it and need it. Schooling, of a kind, sessions in the library, studying and practice. OOCly, this would go a way towards one of the council's initial discussions in everyone being able to share what they know, so exchanging of tips and hints, maybe potentially have something like Dalish teaching (some) skills to the non-Dalish mages and vice versa so enriching knowledge and basically making mages robust and resilient.

Third, she would also suggest something along the lines of 'what to do if a demon appears in the Fade whilst you're asleep'. So not necessarily a Harrowing (or similar) for those that are younger but coping mechanisms. Things to remind yourself of, that you are stronger, what to expect, what they'll try and talk you into, talking about past experiences as part of that crash course. It would at least give the younger apprentices something whilst the council decides what to do re: Harrowings.

DISCUSSION: Reimagined Harrowings

[mythalenaste]

[keeperofmagi]

Nerva will likely say that Mages who have not been through a Harrowing should be kept in separate barracks under guard for the foreseeable future. And that having the idea of having harrowings somewhere else other than skyhold makes little sense because the danger they pose is exactly the same as having non-harrowed mages in the castle anyway, so why not just build a harrowing chamber like they did in the circles.

She will argue against them being told what a harrowing involves because the whole point is that you need to be prepared at all times, and won't know in advance what will happen with a demon in a general setting anyway.

Also changing the name is semantics "and stupid", because she is stubborn and set in her ways.

Also she would argue that every mage should have a discussion before hand about the possibility of Tranquility, and the costs and benefits of such a decision, without the "fear mongering" that many mages use to discredit and de-humanize the tranquil.

[wickedchase]

Fate who may or may not be vaguely intoxicated snidely asks if this is a replacement conclave before stating anything to do with your Circle Harrowings ought to be voluntary training, never an outright strict requirement -- and the threat of death or Tranquility thereafter isn't going to help anything.

Encouraged training at most, never a with a threat. You're encouraging at least one of the problems mages had with Circles at that point.

[arcaneadvisor]

A Harrowing is the product of the Chantry and the Circles; the mages chose freedom thus the war (if they hadn't already chosen it by living free of the Circles all their lives or finding a way to get out) and the Inquisition isn't the Circle. Wouldn't actively being part of the Inquisition and fighting in general be proof enough? Or (because it's Morrigan and she's never shy about coming forward) are they all determined to keep repeating the mistakes of the past just to appease Templars and perhaps guilty consciences.

I apologise in advance for her being a very loud voice of opposition.

[madame_de_fer]

Going to hit salient points all at once because I want to contribute but have a small sliver of time today. This is not necessarily in order or exact wording.

1. Call them whatever you like. Call them tea at the Winter Palace with the Empress. The name isn't important here. What is important is not allowing certain elements hardheaded, and yes incorrectly ill-informed, notions of what happens in a Circle to put off a necessary safeguard.

2. Training and testing must happen. They have collectively let down the most vulnerable among them and on their heads be the shame and the consequences. By dithering on this hoping it would go away or resolve itself, they've lost too much life.

3. Vivienne will firmly squash any non-Circle mage who even hints that children were Harrowed. (Some characters seem to have that IC opinion.) Specifically: "We do not send children into the Fade. What nonsense. Trained apprentices on the cusp of adulthood are Harrowed in the Circle. What kind of barbarism do you think was afoot?" Basically by the time a Harrowing rolled around, the apprentice had years of training and was of an age to make a reasonable decision about their own capabilities of a mage if they could pass or not.

4. She will possibly suggest with much sighing and annoyance to speak with the Tevinters about their Harrowings. She will concede grudgingly to at least hear out alternatives brought forward, unlike certain council elements who just bark NO without hearing things out. (Trust me, she will make it seem like she's being tried heavily to even compromise the purity of a Harrowing as done in the southern-Thedas Circles. Even though she'd like to settle on something sufficient for the job without actually being so severe. Have to keep up appearances.)

5. She is going to be exceptionally cranky with anyone who rejects anything outright as a "no templars" or "no harrowings" out of hand. Especially anyone who hasn't lived in a Circle and is being stubborn in their ignorance. More of the speech about not all Circles are the same and some harsh language about those who are making decisions without knowledge or facts should just stop speaking until they can contribute something useful.

6. Objectors to it being mandatory might find that as a group they have no choice. An Abomination has been set loose within the fortress and lives were lost. The common man is typically a superstitious and easily frightened creature. If the Council does not take actions immediately to quell the hysteria among the non-magical, they might all of them find themselves at the mercy of these people. Outsiders might force Harrowings. Or a mass execution. Or throwing the whole lot of them, Harrowed or not, out of the Inquisition to fend for themselves where they cannot be a threat to anyone else. And quite frankly, she feels they as mages should retain the power and authority to determine the right action for any mage in the Inquisition and not willy-nilly hand that off to ignorant commoners. A public statement that everyone is being trained, and tested against further possessions, should go a long way to soothe upset people. Does it perhaps offend the sensibilities of the more strong-willed among them? Better that the stronger put aside their pride and use that to protect their more vulnerable brethern than suddenly find themselves collectively herded and put to the sword.

Ultimately: Vivienne is passionate about providing both education and care for their magelings. Yes that Harrowing/test is included in that care because it is reassuring for the less skilled to know that they do have the tools and ability to Just Say No... to demons. And seriously, I know it's a game and the mods might not push the npcs this direction, but there is a valid point to the majority of Thedas being quite skittish about mages in general and if the council doesn't come up with a solid plan that applies to everyone, all the mages could suddenly find themselves forced into a prison.

[mythalenaste]

Pel doesn't have much opinion to voice since this is partly her proposal, but she does stand up and volunteer to be the first subject of this new form of Harrowing if it passes the Council's vote as-is.

[nofury]

Without commenting on the rest of it yet, Maria is curious to know what the plan is for mages that undergo all this and then fail, assuming they are in the theoretical world where this is all accepted as currently proposed.

With a backup spirit mage there, there's the chance they don't go abomination but clearly would have if they were alone. Do they get a week seminar on the danger of demons and get to try to pass the test again?

Sauveterre's Opinions

[equanimiti]

So it finally happened.

For OOC reasons, I've placed the Knight-Commander on the back burner and watched events unfold from afar. To say the least, the Knight-Commander knew something like this would transpire but allowed for it to happen. This unfortunate event further proves the need for Templars at Skyhold. With that no longer under any dispute, Sauveterre will agree to re-establishing the Harrowing under the Mage Council's digression. Though, Alayre will most likely try to challenge the council's authority if more Abominations emerge.

[paperwing]

Sabriel's general thoughts which I have put into numbered points since I'm late to this and it's easier than responding to everything.

1. No matter what they decide on a Harrowing (and whether it should be called that) they need to respond to this disaster with the seriousness it deserves, and the fact of the matter is that demons are unsafe and lives have been lost over their dithering, so something alike to a Harrowing must now be done, and this is not a point she will back down over.

2. She will agree with Vivienne that they need to show themselves as able to competently deal with this emergency on their own or non-mages will react negatively. They want to be equal, they need to show themselves as able and structured.

3. She would, repeatedly and assuredly, point out to the Templars that mages should have some ways of knowing what to expect before undergoing anything similar to a Harrowing. It is a test, yes, but you should be allowed to prepare and there is no way of knowing what type of demon will be attracted to what type of mage. Even the strongest of mages can almost fail a Harrowing purely because of the type of demon that was enamored with them and that in itself is a test and the true surprise. You can prepare all you like, as little as they did in the past or as much as they're proposing now, but you still will not know what you will find. Soldiers are not sent into a battle, untrained and unprepared in what is essentially a death-sentence, but even then, there is still an element of surprise. Templars are not sent to guard and protect mages without knowing what to expect and without the skills to do so. Going to fight darkspawn is not a guarantee just because she is a Warden and she has faced darkspawn before. Abominations are the most frightening and potentially the greatest of all these threats, yes, but as a reflection of that, shouldn't mages have the assistance, support, and everything they need in order to help them succeed? Demons thrive on fear and uncertainty and eradicating both of these things is the best defense.

4. Though something alike a Harrowing should happen she would potentially suggest that there should be a more open policy on demons, and that training, not just about demons, is crucial. Anyone who uses their magic regularly (such as in battle, healing, etc etc) should have specific tailored training. Not a re-test or a re-Harrowing but in the way that Templars have sword training etc they should have something similar, which would bring her back to her schooling points. Also, anyone who is close to what can be defined as a failure without the assistance could, potentially, not be allowed to perform more advanced types of magic except in an emergency and is still trained, and potentially they could try again to lift this in months or even years when they are older and more confident in themselves. She will not insist upon the latter point but leave it open as a suggestion for them all to consider. She will say there is much more to this than what is discussed today and agreed upon and they will have to figure out the best way for things to be done but first they should focus on immediate safety of all mages.

5. She will accept if someone does not want to undergo a reimagined Harrowing because she is pro-choice but she will likely insist that if any Dalish, Vashoth, future apprentices etc do not they still undergo the regular training as somewhat outlined above. If they have ways of dealing with demons outside of Harrowings, perhaps they could be implemented into those sessions.

6. She will gently agree with the Templars that they must do something in regards to failure but it should not be punishment. Whether it be as outlined above or something else entirely is something that can be discussed further and at length in the future after this crisis is dealt with.

DISCUSSION: Templar Involvement

[mythalenaste]

[mythalenaste]

Pel describes this experience with Maria Hill.

[keeperofmagi]

From Nerva:

All mages leaving the castle should go with a templar (yes good), all mages should be barracked together until they pass a harrowing, and barracks should have templar guards, for the safety of both them and everyone else in the castle.

She will also point out that this means that mages will not be able to go a good majority of missions because of the lack of templars, and that they should be actively working to train more templars.

[arcaneadvisor]

Morrigan would be disgusted at the thought of a Templar escort given that 1. not all mages are from Circles and have no desire to be treated as such and 2. she would likely argue that the Circle way of going about things is half the reason there are the sorts of incidents that there are.

She would point blank refuse any form of Templar escort, vehemently. She came as a free mage never knowing the Circle and she absolutely will not be subject to this. You sheep.

If mages are free, if they are a part of the Inquisition then they shouldn't have a separate set of rules that sound like the Circle outside the Circle governening them. Abominations happen, she's seen that plenty of times during the Blight, you accept that, you move on, you teach people not to be so foolish whilst accepting that yes, there are people who are just that foolish with or without the Chantry and you move on. Templars can be just as guilty of being influenced by other forces so what would the vetting procedures be for the Templars and who would they even be performed by? What would the system be for dealing with complaints if/when they arise?

Whilst still point blank refusing Templars coming anywhere near her unless they're truly assigned by chance.

[onlyhymns]

Cade spends the meeting standing stone-faced behind Nerva and occasionally nodding in agreement to things she says. He is muscle and moral support.

[eolasemah]

Despite her lapse in health as a result of the abomination's visit, Sina made a point of being there. She sat on the floor against the wall, wrapped in a thick blanket and watching wearily, her brow periodically knitting in indication of disagreement or fear. The shard was barely visible beneath the blanket's fabric, but still managed a hint of a glow.

[mythalenaste]

During a break, Pel managed to check on her and ask her thoughts and assure her she will never be put through a Harrowing against her will.

COUNCILOR MOTION: TEA BREAK & RECESS

[fleurdesel]

Everyone take ten. or twenty. or FIFTEEN.

[wickedchase]

thank god because who needs a drink fate knows he does

[ungovernable]

just sticking a pin in this so i remember to come and read it and write opinions / take the minutes twelve hours from now when i get home from work x_x

THE RESOLUTION - reference only, do not reply

[mythalenaste]

On this day, the Sixteenth of Haring in the year 9:41 Dragon, the Inquisition Council of Magi passed the following resolution:

Firstly, that beginning one week from today, all mages of able body under the Council's authority must attend a course with the intended purpose of training against demon possession. This course will be designed by the Council and take two weeks of intensive training to complete. Any mages estranged from Skyhold at the time will complete the course upon their return. This particular course will not require the facing of demons, but will rigorously employ techniques from many different cultures. Senior mages are not exempt, but may teach as well as attend. Grey Wardens are not required to attend.

Secondly, a new form of training will be required of all mages considered junior or at-risk by the Council, when both they and their tutors consider them ready and able, which will consist of an educated entry into the Fade to face the spirits and demons there. This will not be a Harrowing, as the mage will be educated first about the experience, with the intent to test a mage while giving every opportunity to succeed. This exercise will be known as Fade-training, and the subject may enter into the Fade alone or accompanied by a spirit medium at their choosing. Grey Wardens are exempted, but will be permitted to Fade-train if it is their expressed desire.

Thirdly, this Council recognizes that Templars are important to the safety of all in numerous ways. Any mage who desires a Templar companion at any time for any reason is permitted to appeal to the Council, which will strive to find and interview a willing and trustworthy Templar. All mages in the Inquisition should come to the Council with questions or concerns in this matter, before the Council meets with any organized Templar body that is to come.

Any charges against mages are to be investigated by the Council. Any charges against Templars by mages are to be investigated by both the Council and by the Inquisition's order of Templars in equal capacity if and when it is formed.

This Council reserves the right to amend this document in the days to come. Amendments will be posted alongside this declaration. It is the responsibility of each mage to keep herself informed. Any Councilor may be approached with concerns and questions.

Signed,

The Inquisition Council of Magi.

councilor thevenet

[ungovernable]

Education and support to prevent future incidents such as the one involving Lauren Stouts is a good idea; Benevenuta is unsure that a two week intense course is anything other than an immediate bandaid, however, and thinks that they should focus on ongoing efforts rather than something that comes across as a too-late fumble. In discussing Harrowings and alternatives, she would like to know whether Stouts was Harrowed or not in the first place; does anybody know?

As far as the Templars go:

Benevenuta is and has consistently and publicly been in favour of cooperation with the former Templars, but she will point out that as of this exact moment during this conversation, there is no Templar organisation with which to negotiate. The Council of Magi is not in a position to mandatorily require anything involving Templars, rendering the argument back and forth on how many Templars and how many mages and who has to do what irrelevant - they can't enforce this. They can't make a mandatory requirement of people they have no authority over and the Templars as an organisation do not presently exist in Skyhold.

She would be delighted to discuss future cooperation with any such organisation and volunteers to support such negotiations personally and directly (Dorian will love that), but the argument currently on the table is unfeasible, and moreover, undermines the Council's authority. The first response of the Council to its first crisis cannot be to run and hide behind Templar skirts, and they cannot forget that Templars and mages did not resolve their war but set it aside for the time being. Or that atrocities have been committed on both sides, by both parties, and that attempting to force people who have actively been trying to kill each other until quite recently into close quarters is not the action of people who are trying to promote safety. They need to solve their own problems and be seen to do so if they want to be taken seriously - by the rest of Skyhold, but also by the mages that they represent. Especially by the mages that they represent.

She would like to officially bring Dorian Pavus' suggestion as an official alternative with her voice as a member of the Council, but firmly reiterates that they cannot lean upon an organisation that doesn't exist and they cannot require anything of people who are not under their authority. Which no Templar is, therefore nothing involving them can be considered mandatory. If and when the Templars organise themselves, those who choose to be involved in it - Benevenuta will be the first to gladly work with them, but she won't support anything that forces mages and former Templars to work together unwillingly, with a risky imbalance of power and so much agitation. It puts both mages and Templars at risk for the sake of appeasement politics that will work against them in the long term, and, probably, the immediate.

It's probably the most she's ever said in public! She may have been heard by a select few muttering to Dorian in aside that they can't give orders to a bag of cats.

[mythalenaste]

Pel responds that she discussed this resolution with Knight-Commander Alayre before bringing it to this Council. However, she agrees (with some delight) to edit the resolution thusly.

Should we limit the Templar paragraph to something akin to "we are seeking cooperation with the Inquisition's Templars?"

NPC RESPONSES

[faderifting]

The proposal as currently written will have the support of a slim majority of NPCs present for the debate.

Point one (the training program) will have approximately 2/3rds support, but of the supporters, approximately half will think that two weeks is not sufficient and only agree because it is better than nothing.

Point two (Fade-training) will have support from approximately 1/2. Those who do not support it will be split between those who do not want anything resembling a Harrowing and those who want full Harrowings as historically implemented.

Point three (Templar outreach) will have 3/4ths support, but the dissenters will be very angry and loud about it.

Point four (investigations) will have nearly global support, with a few of the dissenters from point three believing that until such time the Templars organize, the Mage Council should investigate complaints independently and deliver findings to the Inquisition's leadership directly.

The loudest dissenters/ringleaders include:

• A Senior Enchanter who will agree that training and forewarning are fair but insist that any mage who cannot successfully, independently undergo a Harrowing with those precautions is a liability and should not be allowed to remain in the fortress.

• Another Circle Mage who will insist that traditional Harrowings are necessary and that being able to resist demons with warning and assistance means nothing.

• A young rebel leader who refuses to assent to any gesture of goodwill toward the Templars until there have been repercussions--or at least an apology--for the Annulments and unlawful use of the Rite of Tranquility before and during the war.

• A Circle Mage who expresses discomfort with the vocal role that apostates are playing in this debate and with the use of untested, non-Circle techniques in the proposed training program.

Each will have some murmurs of support. A nervous young apprentice will also be goaded by her friends into asking what will happen if someone participates in Fade-training but fails or needs intervention from their guide.

---

The version of the proposal that this refers to, for reference:

On this day, the Sixteenth of Haring in the year 9:41 Dragon, the Inquisition Council of Magi passed the following resolution:

Firstly, that beginning one week from today, all mages of able body under the Council's authority must attend a course with the intended purpose of training against demon possession. This course will be designed by the Council and take two weeks of intensive training to complete. Any mages estranged from Skyhold at the time will complete the course upon their return. This particular course will not require the facing of demons, but will rigorously employ techniques from many different cultures. Senior mages are not exempt, but may teach as well as attend. Grey Wardens are not required to attend.

Secondly, a new form of training will be required of all mages considered junior or at-risk by the Council, when both they and their tutors consider them ready and able, which will consist of an educated entry into the Fade to face the spirits and demons there. This will not be a Harrowing, as the mage will be educated first about the experience, with the intent to test a mage while giving every opportunity to succeed. This exercise will be known as Fade-training, and the subject may enter into the Fade alone or accompanied by a spirit medium at their choosing. Grey Wardens are exempted, but will be permitted to Fade-train if it is their expressed desire.

Thirdly, this Council recognizes that Templars are important to the safety of all in numerous ways. Any mage who desires a Templar companion at any time for any reason is permitted to appeal to the Council, which will strive to find and interview a willing and trustworthy Templar. All mages in the Inquisition should come to the Council with questions or concerns in this matter, before the Council meets with any organized Templar body that is to come.

Any charges against mages are to be investigated by the Council. Any charges against Templars by mages are to be investigated by both the Council and by the Inquisition's order of Templars in equal capacity if and when it is formed.

This Council reserves the right to amend this document in the days to come. Amendments will be posted alongside this declaration. It is the responsibility of each mage to keep herself informed. Any Councilor may be approached with concerns and questions.

Signed,

The Inquisition Council of Magi.

NPC RESPONSES

[judgemewhole]

Norrington would like to ask for time to arrange some sort of meeting for the Templars to discuss this in kind? As they have not actually ... had any official meetings prior to him coming here, apparently?

Vote Postponed Till After Christmas

[fleurdesel]

Feel free to continue to read through and discuss as you like, but a formal vote is going to be put off till after Christmas.

Everyone enjoy your holidays!

VOTE

[fleurdesel]

All in favor of the resolution as presented please respond with Aye in the subject and commentary in the...comment. Suggesting future amendments, points of discussion not yet addressed, or opinions are all welcome and encouraged.

All against please respond with Nay in the subject and commentary in the comment.

All abstaining (respectfully) please respond with Abstains in the subject and commentary in the comment.

Please do not converse in the voting threads as it clutters them, thank you!

AYE.

[ungovernable]

benny's thoughts have been pretty well covered here. she isn't 100% satisfied, but she figures this is the best they're going to achieve today.