faderiftooc | We're trying that OOC plotting thing

We're trying that OOC plotting thing

All right, what would all of the Templars and the advisers think of the New Templar Order, instead of melting into the Inquisition, instead offer open enrollment to any one of any creed or background as long as they swore an oath to the Inquisition, aka the Divine's Last Mandate and the true path of the Chantry?

Edit

And now, with better clarification on the Templar's role in Thedas, thanks to Varric, and Cassandra's players, as well as TheRedPenguin on Plurk, NEW plotting idea.

Norrington is coming back from Montemps with two goals - securing Skyhold against the dangers of blood magic with a plan, and finding where the red templars are getting their lyrium so they can cut them off. Per previous CR, he is going to be joining his voice more loudly with the loyalist mages that they need further Templar involvement with the mages - not only for the rest of the Inquisition but for the safety of the mages themselves from the dangers of mind control by the mages.

He is going to have a plan, however, before he goes to the mage council. I, the mun, need some help formulating that plan. Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome. I'll put a post below everything else for people to respond to.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ingrid is brand new to the Inquisition, but she would be fine with that!

kane is brand new but would ????? at this and ask why anyone feels it necessary, and being new to the inquisition, is distinctly uncomfortable with the implication that the central mandate of the order be dedicated to the inquisition.

being new, he will be level and curious, attempting not to ruffle feathers, but deeply confused enough that he'd have to say something.

being a templar is several things, but chief among them is a lifetime of education, dedicated training, oathswearing, and learning, not to mention the imbibing of lyrium. sure, you can teach templar training techniques to anyone (and he'd be happy to do so), but unless anyone is willing to dedicate great portions of their lives to the teaching and learning of chantry edicts and take vows of knighthood (and still not even begin to touch the rigorous extent of training that templars take on from childhood), they'll never really be templars in the sense of being the holy heroes of thedas folklore. it's an innately exclusive organisation.

who is opening enrolment? on what authority? is this an attempt to address a problem, and if so, what is that problem? (and if he has this wrong and it's exclusive to the new order and no one is actually recruiting people into being templars, than ignore all of this!)

I was thinking about this week back.

If they do open enrollment now for the Order, the New Templars would be more like "Knights" rather than Templars. There would be a strong gap in power between this new generation and the old. I have no ideas how that gap could be bridged even if I like the sound of open enrollment.

However, I really think the Order needs to find their footing again first before embarking upon this endeavor.

kane would latch onto this last notion, at least.

the templar order is full of strong and admirable ideals, and even if they don't have jurisdiction over the mages in skyhold (he sees them under the "protection" of the inquisition while the circles are disbanded) due to not having any real oversight (and considering some of the abuses he's witnessed, this is understandable), there are still a lot of things they can do to remind everyone what templars stand for -- they're demon-killing, blood mage hunting defenders of peace.

maybe it's time to set aside politics for a while and get back to the roots.

I think first of all that the Templars need to establish a new chain of command. They need get that going first before attempting to merge non-Templars into their ranks. If they manage to fix themselves in this manner, then maybe open enrollment?

As of right now, they're still in the eye of the storm. Not everything will be resolved this month or the next. So we can take our time with all this rather than rush out and have them recruit new prospects. The Order needs time to repair relations, fix current troubles, and find their momentum again.

So still on hiatus and being tackled by a cold here, but agreeing with the above that while new blood will be a good thing in time to come, the Order needs to get its ducks in a row. We have a huge NPC group to take into account that still support the order, so dramatic changes will take a lot of time and talking instead of sudden reactions.

I'm kind of confused as to what actually is being debated here, sorry.

Why is it 'instead of melting'? I thought that MJ made it fairly clear that any such thing wouldn't be accepted by the NPC templars anyway?

Hi guys! We're sorry we didn't say something sooner, but until very recently, we were under the impression that the New Order was not meant to encompass all of the Templars within or affiliated with the Inquisition. It has now become clear that this is not what some had in mind, but we think that is still the best route to take.

It's fine for some characters to be radical reformists, but what's being pursued here isn't something that the broader ranks would be willing to swallow at this point. Thedas on the whole is still very conservative and believes the Templar Order as it previously existed was a good thing. A couple of PCs will not really have the authority or the support to institute major reforms on their own, especially without a lot of time and work. We've updated the Skyhold page with information about the political climate and demographics of the Inquisition, including specifics on the mages and the Templar Order. Hopefully this will help give you more context going forward. (We are going to announce those updates in our OOC round-up post later today, but you can look early.)

Additionally, from an OOC standpoint, it isn't fair to players who want to play with the more nuanced aspects of the conflict--including both mage players and Templar players who are interested in the security vs. freedom debate, who app because they want to explore the political conflicts that exist in the setting, etc.--to change the organization this radically or rapidly. We've gotten the impression from a few people that the Mage vs. Templar conflict is being treated as a problem to solve as quickly as possible, but it's meant to be a fixture of the setting, and building a lasting solution should be a long-term, slow-burn project that everyone has a fair chance to participate in and that will likely experience a lot of ups and downs along the way.

At this point, we think the best way to frame the New Order would be as a kind of political party for current or former Templars who want to push for reform and work with the mage council. It does not have authority over Templars as a whole, and realistically never would have. We realize that because of a misunderstanding this isn't the assumption everyone has been operating under in previous threads, so at this point we can offer one of the two solutions:

For Option 1, we would need everyone affected to be okay with it. Otherwise we'll default to Option 2.

In the future, please consult with us before doing anything major that will affect entire groups or organizations. This isn't to stymie progress or so we can tell your characters not to have opinions, but so we can let you know how NPCs would respond or what sort of support they might have and help avoid potential confusion and the need to retcon. Mage Council business always includes input from us about the NPC population, and things involving the Templars or other large segments of the Inquisition need to as well.

Thanks!

Edited (numbering / mj is the tense police pass it on) 2016-02-22 19:22 (UTC)

Well, since the overwhelming consensus is that the Templars need to work on leadership anyways? I vote for a soft retcon where the NPC Templars are like 'No we still want to torture mages and throw them into the Circle' and James's group wants to be like, 'Yeah no that's not gonna work any more people, genie's out of the bottle there folks.'

And I will just drop the idea of the New Order changing the dynamic as well.

Just to point out there are also numerous positions between torturing mages and liberation, positions which several PCs have taken in game. A fracturing of the Templar Order would be okay and interesting to play, but there's no need to drawn lines between good Templars and Evil templars which, unless I am reading this wrong and I apologize for that (I am curled up on cough medicine at the moment), feels like is happening?

Honestly, I was kind of hoping we could play something out where the Templars come together as a group and not separate. I'm using dramatic license for the reason for the divide though, and nothing serious.

That may be a long time coming, at the moment. Which, again, it's a long game. That's fine and gives us all long term goals. But at the moment, and I certainly can't speak for other PCs, but Maria at least is not ready to back any single PC templar as the head of the Order based on IC events. I'm sure NPCs, as they do in the mage side, will also be divided. So there may be a temporary fractioning based on ideology that, over time, can come together.

To throw in my two cents, one would be difficult to implement without a lot of adding retconned conversations, etc, at least on my end. I'd be willing to work towards it, but it wasn't the impression I was working under for most of the game thus far.

Two sounds like an interesting way to work on both PC vs PC as well as PC vs NPC politics, if the Templar order starts to split. This whole Civil War and the two hands of the Divine drawing a line with the Rifters could also add a whole new level to the debate.

I'm just going to admit it: I have no idea what to do here.

The Templars have a few radical pigeons amongst them but I was under the wrong impression that these radicals possessed more sway. With the cat out of the proverbial bag, I see that isn't the case at all which is fine.

I'm still sticking to the notion that the Order here at Skyhold needs to iron itself out a bit because, to be frank, they need it. As for everything else, I'm not certain what to do or what is even allowed at this point.

The problem is that apparently the two most radical templars are also the highest-ranked. So IC they have had a lot of sway, and Alayre and Norrington have also been two of the most active templars tagging. It may have seemed from an OOC perspective that their viewpoint was more mainstream than it actually is? (Especially since people haven't been taking "silent majority" NPC opinions into account).

The fact is that the "New Templar Order" idea is a radical one, especially for its time, and honestly, if Cassandra heard any templars talking about opening it up to anyone, or moving away from their role as guardians against dangerous magic, she would be baffled and probably furious.

I'm just gonna go ahead and link the Wiki entry again here because honestly it seems like there's some confusion over what a Templar is, what they do and why, and how they are perceived by the people of Thedas. Please see specifically the section on Templar recruitment. "As the Chantry’s military arm, they are recruited primarily for their martial skill and religious dedication to the Maker." Alayre questioning his own faith, he and Norrington calling for the Order to allow anyone to join regardless of their faith in the Maker, and the two of them talking of distancing themselves from the Chantry and voicing support for mage freedom is a problem. It makes no sense. Any of this would have Cassandra strongly questioning why they are Templars at all, why they are leading the Templars when they no longer believe in their work ("they must be unswervingly loyal to the Order"), and frankly, what the hell they are thinking.

Templars are not Stormtroopers. They're not evil and most people don't resent them at all, including many mages. Most people see them as "Champions of the Just" - protecting everyone, including mages, from the dangers of demonic possession, rogue apostates, and more - including protecting mages themselves from others who might try to do them harm. "Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears these magic users for very good reasons." Contrary to what OOC perception seems to have been lately, Templars are not universally viewed as the mages' cruel oppressors, but their guardians and protectors. Of course there have been some incidents where that hasn't been the case, and there have been instances where Templars overstepped their bounds, but to say that the mage side of the mage/templar war is unquestioningly in the right and the Templars are the villains if they don't immediately capitulate misses a whole lot of context and subtlety.

Logically, it makes no sense for all of the templars to be following Alayre and Norrington when they seem to have forgotten what a Templar is, or why their job is important. Templars do what they do because they firmly believe (and with reason!) that they are needed. They take pride in their work and do not apologize for it. They do what they do to protect both mages and the other people of Thedas. With few exceptions, they would not be pushing for mage freedom, and if Norrington and Alayre really feel this way about their work as Templars, the solution is probably for them to step down and figure out for themselves whether they still want to be Templars or need to find another path. Not try to reform the Templar Order from within.

I'm confused. I thought all the Templars who came to the Inquisition weren't bound by the Chantry anymore. Isn't that the game's stance on the Chantry for Inquisition? Most of the Templars recruited in game aren't bound by them anymore but by the Inquisition now.

Edited 2016-02-22 22:40 (UTC)

The mod post linked below lists the current skyhold templar affiliation breakdown as:

AFFILIATIONS:

↠ 35% have integrated directly into the Inquisition military, at least for now, and no longer use their Templar rank or title
↠ 55% operate as a quasi-independent force, serving directly under Ser Barris or their former Commanders, who in turn take direction from the Inquisition
↠ 10% have other ideas

Slight disclaimer here - I sided with the mages in my Inquisition playthrough and haven't actually played Champions of the Just. If I get anything wrong at any point someone please correct me.

That said, while technically the templars aren't affiliated with the Chantry anymore after being recruited by the Inquisition, that's only because the Chantry is a mess with no leader right now and half their Order is hopped up on red lyrium. They still have the same sense of faith and duty as they always have.

Agreeing with the above. To my understanding the issue with the Chantry at the moment is there is no Divine, therefore no 'commander in chief' for the Templars. However, the Inquisition has both the Left and the Right hand of the former Divine, and so serves as a temporary guide until the Chantry is back on its feet.

As we mentioned in our longer post above, the Skyhold page has been updated with information regarding the overall Templar population, including approximate percentages showing their opinions on the future of the order, their stance toward integration with the Inquisition, and the ranks of Templars currently residing in Skyhold. We strongly encourage you all to read that post carefully.

Since we see some confusion here and there we'd also like to reiterate that Alayre and Norrington are not the only Knights-Commander in Skyhold. We know it's easy to forget that NPCs exist because PCs are always going to be the most prominent figures in RP, but just as the mages on the Council are not the only Senior Enchanters, neither are PC Templars the only high-ranking Templars in Skyhold. Sauveterre and Norrington have taken a leadership role so far and have been loudest and most active to date, but they do not outrank everyone else.

Thank you for clarifying this for me.

I also want to apologize for the way I have been playing Norrington. I was unaware of the liberties I was taking, and am currently in process with Alayre's player of correcting our mistakes. We would like to have all of the 'progressive Templar' discussions between Alayre and Norrington retconned now that we have a stronger and more clear idea of what the current Templar stance will be, if that would be possible.

I am also going to have Norrington, post Montemps and Emprise du Lion, focus on 'blood mages in Skyhold and what we're doing about them' plan, and hunting down the Red Templar's sources for lyrium now they have lost the mines, if that would be acceptable plotting.

Indeed, I honestly do apologize for the mixup I caused here. I know of Dragon Age from Origins but I didn't know the full scope of this canon.

In all truth, Final Fantasy in general has such a lapse view on Magic and Religion, that I just didn't realize how progressive Alayre was as a character. Had I known four months ago, I honestly would've done things quite different just to make certain he's playing by the books. While Alayre is indeed very progressive in his views, he wouldn't hold much sway amongst other Templars who still follow the Chantry. That means that most of his progressive views wouldn't be widely known or grately accepted.

I was under the impression that Templars who join the Inquisition would no longer be bound by the Chantry. That's not the case here even though the game itself does give the Inquistor the option of recruiting Templars under that premise. Since the Templars are still tethered to the Chantry, Alayre honestly won't be able to do anything substantial here in this short amount of time.

He would be lucky just to get Templars to stop senselessly beating mages. That's probably the best he could honestly do right now.

I'm eating a ton of crow today, so I'm just going to leave my apology here.

Edited 2016-02-22 23:03 (UTC)

So post-Montemps and everything that has happened there, Norrington would be coming up with a new plan on how the possibility of dealing with blood mages in their ranks, and protecting the Inquisition, all of it, from the infiltration of blood mages should be put into place immediately.

I have some ideas on it - but anyone who can help with the plotting? I would be grateful.

Here's what I have so far.

- Mages are checked by their own by any telltale scars that are common place with blood magic.
- Experimental magic will be, and should be, supervised with one templar and one senior mage any possible corruption in using blood magic. No miracle magic here, thank you.
- All books on blood magic should be turned over to the senior enchanters AND only allowed out to mages who have been cleared for research purposes only.
- This goes without saying but any blood mage found will immediately be executed if they have done harm to anyone else through blood magic, either by spell or by sacrifice. Any blood mage that has strictly self-harmed and simply used blood to augment their own abilities without harming others, will be put under immediate templar supervision so they will not do it again. Ever.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

We're trying that OOC plotting thing

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

MOD COMMENT PT 2

Re: MOD COMMENT PT 2

no subject

Blood mage plan